Speaker 1 00:05 Is this thing on? Speaker 2 00:06 Hi. Hello. Is this thing on? Hi, is this thing on? Speaker 1 00:09 Is this thing on? Is this thing on? This thing on? Are we open? Kevin Corocoran 00:18 Welcome to Open Ed Mike, where educators share stories, insights, and strategies for transforming learning through openness. Wherever you are in your open education journey, we invite you to the conversation. So, joining me today is Zach Claybaugh. Unfortunately, Zach, we're a little bit shorthanded today. We don't have Mike or Brittany with us. Zach Claybaugh 00:37 We'll make it work. My name is Zach Claybaugh. I am a access and reference services librarian at Dominican University right outside of Chicago, Illinois. Kevin Corocoran 00:49 And I'm Kevin Corocoran from the University of Central Florida in the middle of a thunderstorm, which is sort of redundant in Florida, but We are thrilled today to our guest, who is Nicole Allen, one of the most recognized and influential advocates within the open education movement. Nicole is the Director of Open Education at SPARC, where she has led work in policy, professional development, national coordination, and support for practitioners. expanding access to knowledge. 01:17 She also serves as the Executive Director for the Open Education Association, a national membership organization working to connect, strengthen, and advocate for the open education field. Nicole's career began in student advocacy around the rising cost of college textbooks. Over the years, she's helped elevate textbook affordability from a student concern to a national policy issue. 01:40 and helped establish open education as a practical and scalable response. Her work has brought together students, librarians, educators, policy makers institutional leaders and advocates from around the world around the principle that knowledge is a public good. In 2016, Open Education Global recognized her contributions with its leadership award. 02:06 Today, Nicole is helping guide Open Education into its next phase one focused on coordination, sustainable infrastructure, professional community, and a shared voice. We're excited to talk with Nicole about where the movement has been, where it's headed. And what will take it to move forward and keep open education ambitious, inclusive, and durable? 02:29 So, Nicole, welcome. Nicole Allen 02:31 Well, thank you so much for that kind introduction. It's a pleasure to be here. Kevin Corocoran 02:36 We start every podcast with a similar question: We want to know everybody's super origin story. So, you know, we know a little bit about you just because we've had the chance to work with you over the years, but you know, from Student advocacy to policy work. Can you just tell our listeners, you know, how did you get into the open field and how your journey has progressed over the years? Nicole Allen 03:00 My story starts when I was an undergraduate student who was frustrated with the high cost of textbooks and the high cost of education. This was the Mid-2000s, so it was a time when the internet was really becoming part of everybody's lives and illustrating what's possible when people are connected with each other and able to share with each other. And it just always rankled with me how, you know, here we are with information becoming more abundant, yet you're making me use this outdated paper textbook that costs $150. 03:38 And that was. . That was cheap back then. 03:42 And education is just getting more expensive for everybody. And during my senior year in college, I got involved in an advocacy campaign around a big reform to student loans that was happening in Congress around that time. And I was in Washington state and there was one key swing vote in Congress on that bill. 04:05 And he was right, his district was located right near my college and I made it my mission to change his vote. And I was out there like organizing student petitions and writing up eds, getting student governments across the state to take action. The moment where my life diverged was the day before the vote on that bill. 04:31 So we got together, this group of students, we were outside this congressman's office. It was pouring rain because, you know, this is Seattle. And, you know, we had these signs and we actually had to cover them in packing tape. 04:44 because they were melting. But we were out there for about an hour when somebody comes down from the building. and comes up to our group and you know I had this little like oh crap moment where I was like I thought we were gonna get in trouble. 05:03 And they asked who the leader was. And I was like, oh, I guess that's me. And what happened is that they brought me up to the office. 05:15 And put me on the phone with a congressman who had stepped off the floor of the U. S. House of Representatives the day before a critical vote. To listen to what I had to say. And he listened for 30 minutes about the challenges around college affordability and student debt. 05:34 and how this vote that they were going to take was going to make things harder for students. And that was the moment that my life diverged. Like, I thought I was going to be a doctor. 05:43 And that was the moment where I realized that advocacy was my true calling. And the realization was really that there's actually nothing special about me. Other than I got a bunch of people together and showed up and if I hadn't done this, this congressman would have gone into that vote never having heard what students had to say about the bill. 06:08 And it made me realize just the need there is for people to do that kind of work and stand up and that if you do go out and do it, you can actually make a difference. Kevin Corocoran 06:20 It's amazing to see how many students who have become leaders within the open ed movement, yourself, Ethan, Kaylin, and so on. You continued. You didn't just do that one. You continued on. Nicole Allen 06:35 Indeed. And yeah, students have really been the heart of the open education movement. And when I, after I graduated, I went to work for the student advocacy organization, the Student PIRGs. 06:50 And well, actually, to close the loop on that story, what actually ended up happening with the congressman is that. The next day when we took the vote, he actually didn't vote with us. But what did happen was that when I went to go work with the student advocacy organization after college, I maintained a relationship with that congressman and he ended up voting in favor of some critical student loan reforms that were passed in the next Congress. 07:18 So all of that work paid off, even though it didn't make a difference the first time. And I think that's a really important lesson about advocacy, is that the process matters just as much as the outcome because it's iterative and builds. Builds on itself. 07:35 So, I guess I've told you how I came to advocacy, but let me tell you how I came to open education specifically. The student purgs got a grant from the Hewlett Foundation in 2007 to engage students in advocacy for OER. And I put my hand up and fought for that job and spent the next six years building and running a national student campaign on over 100 college campuses. 08:04 To engage faculty on the topic of OER in open textbooks. And when we started, when I say awareness was zero, it was like it was zero. The idea of OER was was not something that people knew about and we actually had to invent the idea of open textbooks as a way of talking about it with people The only professors that had any idea what I was talking about are people like Professor David Wiley or Professor Rich Baranek. 08:34 And one of the first big projects that I had was to go out and build a list of OER that looked enough like a textbook that we could call it an open textbook and go out to show it to faculty as an example. of the type of thing that was possible if we built really great high quality materials and made them available for free online for anybody to use. And what I found was five. 09:02 Five examples of an open textbook that we could go around and show faculty and We built a student campaign around that. We had students go around and ended up getting over 3,000 faculty from across the country to sign on to a statement saying that They would want to use an open textbook if there was one that was of comparable quality and would meet the needs of their student. And that work was essential in sort of propelling OER and open education into the national discourse, making it part of the affordability conversation. 09:40 and talking about it is a real solution to the skyrocketing cost of textbooks. So that work continued until 2013 when it started to become clear that for the OER movement to keep growing It needed more than just faculty. Obviously, faculty are the foundation of open educational resources and practices, but we needed people who could help support that work, help find OER, and help Engage faculty in innovative practices. 10:16 And libraries started to get interested. And it was in a response. To students showing up at the library and saying, I can't afford my textbook. 10:27 Can you help me? Do you have this book? Like, this library has so many books in it. 10:32 Like, do you have my textbook? And libraries wanted to respond to that, but recognized that there wasn't really a scalable way to do that by just buying copies of the existing books. That's how I ended up at Spark to build out a campaign to engage libraries in supporting open educational resources. 10:57 Spark saw that opportunity, brought me on board. To build out a program, and sort of the rest is history. Through building a library and community of practice, we eventually launched a leadership program. 11:09 We did a bunch of policy and advocacy work and libraries in many ways are the the lifeblood of a lot of the information that's out there about open education today. And it's exciting that the field has reached a point. where it has grown large enough to need its own association. 11:33 And there's so many different organizations and groups in this space, from librarians to instructional designers. To faculty and students who are engaged in this work. Kevin Corocoran 11:45 I'm curious, I have, you just sparked a question, and now pun intended with saying spark, but It's a great realization that librarians were needed and were drawn to the movement because of a discovery piece. As we look at today and where we're going into the future, libraries are still critical, but are they the Are they the area are they still the folks that we need to recruit and have engaged? Or is it a different group based on where open education stands today? Nicole Allen 12:21 Well, I think we need to recruit everybody, and that's perhaps the advocate in me. Libraries provide that critical connecting function. They exist to connect people with information. 12:33 And with open educational resources in many cases, it is that layer that takes the need of an individual faculty member or student. and then goes out and searches the wide, vast availability of open content or content in general and makes that connection. I think the place where I would like to see us focus more is at the administrator and policymaker level with open education. 13:03 I think open Open education has come a long way advocating for itself as a solution to the high cost of textbooks, as a replacement for expensive materials. as a way to get students faster access to the materials they need. But there's a much bigger case for open education right now. 13:25 especially at a time where we're seeing institutions move more and more toward platforms and commercial vendors and getting locked into these big systems. Thinking about ways that how can we think about our curriculum and content as infrastructure that is worthy of investment and ownership and tailoring? to meet the needs of our students and taking it up to that higher level and thinking about educational resources and the practices around them. 14:00 as part of something that we don't just go rent or procure, but something that we cultivate and collect. Zach Claybaugh 14:11 So Nicole, one thing that you had mentioned briefly in one of your answers previously is that you described the You described open education as a field. And I think that's really interesting because open education has largely been, you know, a movement. And So you're seeing it now, or at least you're describing it now as like a professional field. Could you, I guess, kind of discuss that a little bit more? Nicole Allen 14:43 Yeah, it's been an evolution over time. Originally, it was a group of visionaries. who saw the potential of open education 25 years ago, you know, groups like Creative Commons and MIT OpenCourseWare. 14:59 And then there was the Cape Town Declaration in 2007, 2008 that Talked about a global revolution in teaching and learning. And through the work of some of the work that I've described, but the work of so many people in this space. The actual practice and work of open education has become more professionalized and has become more embedded into the work that libraries do, that faculty do, that instructional designers do. 15:29 And it is heading in the direction of being its own field, and I think that is something to celebrate. That doesn't mean that it also isn't a movement. And it's perhaps many movements at once because these things are always context dependent. 15:49 And I think the distinction between the movement and the field is actually really important right now. Because the field, like I see the field. as the work that happens day to day. 16:02 It's the OER librarians on campus that are connecting faculty with OER or the instructors that are adopting OER and engaging in open practices with their students. The various organizations and networks and institutions with policies. The movement is what helps us Add that up to more and accomplish something larger. 16:26 It's a more political force that's seeking to create long-term change. And I think in some ways the movement behind open education has largely built itself around this idea of Textbook affordability and OER being the alternative, which is just as true today and just as compelling a case as it was 20 years ago when we first started making it. It doesn't have the same kind of impact that it used to because the environment around us has just changed. 17:05 The textbook industry in many ways has muddied the water about affordability and co-opted a lot of the most effective advocacy language that we use for open educational resources to promote automatic textbook billing programs, which are designed to look like Open educational resources, but hide the cost that students have to pay in their tuition and fees. And I guess imitation is the greatest form of flattery, but it has created this environment where advocacy is just a little more complicated than it used to be. At the same time, AI has become the focus of every conversation and changed how we think about content and teaching practices and just raised so many more questions than we have answers. 17:58 And then there's the changes in the political environment and the funding environment that is going to have profound impacts on the way that we do this work. So I guess the movement piece of open education, like the field is great. We're stronger than we've ever been. 18:15 There's more savings for students, more work happening on campuses than there's ever been. But I think the movement, we need to figure out what comes next and think about, you know, given this really complex environment around us, How do we come together to work towards something larger? What does that look like today? Kevin Corocoran 18:39 Well, I'd love to unwind some of this, and we'll come back to policy in a little bit. But just expanding on Affordability being sort of the main theme for the open movement for 20 years, commercial competition, what have you. And looking what goes forward, does Open need to change its narrative to be more than just affordability? Nicole Allen 19:08 The affordability narrative is just as true as it's ever been. So we don't need to change it. We need to Broaden it. 19:18 And we already know that there's so many ways that open can have an impact. And what I would like to see the field do, and this is something that the Open Education Association is inviting the field to work on together over the course of this fall. is to be more intentional about tying open education as a solution to the problems that we see in education today. 19:46 So all around us, throughout higher ed, K-12, education systems, there are problems that are being caused by closed practices and open can be a solution to those. But too often, we're not part of the conversation. And the national priorities process that the association is. 20:11 is launching this fall is aiming on like can we as a US open education field pick a couple of those problems that like Keep decision makers up at night that's on the minds of funders and policymakers, and really work on presenting open education as a solution to those problems and work together to Implement work that can advance that. I'm talking about things like: what if we organized around solving the nursing shortage by getting greater use of the wonderful nursing OER that's out there? Working on AI literacy, like we should have high-quality OER AI literacy curriculum that isn't produced by the very companies that benefit. 21:02 from the use of AI products, but something that can really take a true critical and more balanced approach. Or, you know, there's already great work happening in dual enrollment. Like, could we focus around there and passing more state policies around that, or developing more partnerships between higher ed and K-12? 21:25 The idea is, like I think as a movement, we can accomplish more if we tie the problems we're trying to solve with those that are part of the national discourse to bring open education into that conversation. Kevin Corocoran 21:44 Yes, we were lucky enough to have Lisa Young back in May who was talking about micro-credentials and how that can take existing OER and sort of reshift it into microlearning and broaden the horizon. Nicole Allen 21:58 That's such a ripe opportunity. And shout out to Lisa. Incredible opportunities there to leverage openness in new ways. 22:09 So not just thinking about content, but also how, like, what does open mean in the context of credentialing? And thinking about how we can leverage the one of the superpowers of open is reducing duplication of efforts. And at a time where, you know, with workforce Pell, there's so much drive right now to set up these short-term programs. 22:39 work on getting them to be eligible, that the more that we can do by sharing resources, the faster we can move. Zach Claybaugh 22:48 So just one thing I wanted to jump in here real quick. So you talked about this idea of like a closed instructional material system and one that is often really you know, opaque, particularly on that student side of things. And I think a lot of that is really the scare quotes, inclusive access. 23:10 programs and other things, similar type things. I think one of the challenges that I've always found whenever discussing these types of things with administrators and others is this idea of the bookstores being a revenue stream for the university. and the university getting some sort of compensation as it relates to sales of inclusive access programs as well as things like percentage markups on textbooks as on physical textbooks as well and individual textbook purchases. 23:52 So I guess the question is, is how Have you figured out a way to discuss these ideas with administrators, university leadership, and trying to talk to them about How open education can help serve these butchercing these revenue streams as opposed to inclusive access. Just curious where you kind of land on that and if you have some ideas. Nicole Allen 24:27 Yeah, I mean, it's complex, right? Because institutions are already under so much funding pressure to have a conversation about a funding stream that there any changes that can affect a funding stream that they're receiving, you're starting from a very difficult starting point. But textbook procurement is just like a classic example of a legacy system. 24:54 If you were to stop and design textbook procurement today, you would not set the system up the way that it is. It is the way, it works the way it works because it evolved from a model that was designed when the primary function of the bookstore was to procure the physical objects that were needed for the students. And this isn't answering your question because I don't know that there is an answer to your question specifically. 25:26 But what I would challenge institutions to do is reimagine. Like I think this truly is a case where we need to reimagine our approach to this. and think deeply about the incentive structures that are in place and who they serve. 25:47 So many of the contracts that I have seen between bookstore operators and institutions include a commission that gets paid back to the institution based on whatever's been automatically billed to the student through the ScareQuotes inclusive access program. And I think that's a really Institutions need to really deeply examine that because it's a situation where the institution does benefit financially if those prices go up because it means that they get a larger commission paid back. And while commissions themselves are not or have been standard with bookstore operating agreements for a long time, I think the calculus shifts when the institution itself is the one that's directly billing the students. 26:38 And when it's set up as a as a way where the student can't affirmatively make that choice that's made For them, and they're only given the ability to opt out. I think there's a really deeply concerning incentive structures there. And different institutions may manage it in different ways, but if the goal is actually to get students through education at a price they can afford and not have the cost of course materials have an adverse impact. 27:14 on their education as opposed to get 7% of bookstore revenue to fund the cafeteria or whatever. the institution's arrangement is. Like we need to think bigger about these questions. 27:30 And what I would actually like to see is for institutions engage libraries more in these conversations because libraries have decades of experience negotiating digital contracts for access to scholarly journals. And they've also seen exactly what happens when you package these materials up into big deals. that are provided by a single vendor. 27:57 Prices go in one direction and it's up and we're seeing it happen right now. with these flat fee textbook billing programs that are offered by a variety of vendors, including Barnes and Noble and Follette. So engaging libraries' expertise in that, but also thinking about how can we leverage the library and the incredible wealth of content in their collection to support course materials more effectively and again reduce duplication of effort so students aren't paying for materials that are in the collection. 28:35 and how to think about open education as part of a comprehensive strategy of moving toward course material access that is more sustainably managed. Kevin Corocoran 28:50 For the folks who are just listening, obviously many will know that you've been one of the leading voices in raising concerns about automatic textbook billing programs for a handful of years. And the bookstore is an element of this. But a little bit earlier, we talked about some of the other challenges: the publishers, having homework platforms, having closed systems. 29:13 And there is some attractiveness to some faculty of having those homework systems, those adaptive learning pieces. How do we, either as a field, an association, or a movement, address those infrastructure shortfalls that compete with those commercial products. You mentioned AI and that depending on what side of the fence you're in, there may be a concern around AI from a content development, but Can AI be used for platform development? 29:43 Just anywhere you'd like to respond. Nicole Allen 29:48 Yeah. Well Aaron Powell, Jr. : This is another one of those sticky questions, right, that really requires a re-examining and reimagining, because there are those same kinds of tensions and those same legacy issues. where if you thought about education technology today and homework systems and all that, you would not design a system where a student has to go out and purchase an access code to get access to a third-party platform. 30:18 in order to turn in their homework and take their tests. Like that is just a bad setup. That is objectively bad. 30:27 But it's evolved that way because these products evolved from physical textbooks where it did make sense to go out and buy that textbook. First, it was the questions in the back of the book. Then it was a workbook that was bundled in with the textbook and shrink-wrapped. 30:41 Then it was a CD-ROM. And now we're in the situation with With platforms. So it does take that institutional leadership where we step back and think about the question: is it ethical to ask students to pay a third party? 31:00 In order to complete required coursework, whether that's tests, homework, or just learning exercises. And the solution isn't just to package it up into an untransparent and unaccountable fee. These are critical governance questions. 31:21 They're obviously procurement questions and the textbook companies that produce these products are very good at solving the challenges that faculty face. And, you know, this isn't on faculty because they're just trying to do their job. And they're telling the institutions, I need these tools to do my job. 31:44 And then the institution is saying, well, students, it's your job to go and purchase these things. And I think institutions need to take more responsibility in that equation. and making sure that students have access to the tools they need and making sure faculty have access to the tools they need to teach. 32:05 And these aren't simple questions, right? It's not as simple as just providing access. But I think institutions sometimes forget that they're the customer. 32:17 They decide. what gets bought. Kevin Corocoran 32:21 And like you said, there's real harm too. I mean, Zach, I remember at your previous institution, you shared a student story that was somebody who tried to complete the entire semester's worth of coursework. Within that two-week period. And Nicole, I know you've shared that story as well. Nicole Allen 32:37 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 32:40 And under, like, that has a real cost. And I think more research is coming out that really looks at how course material access impacts student success. And recently AACNU published a study naming OER as a high-impact practice, which is incredibly exciting and a big development. 33:04 also illustrates the challenges that exist within the current system that OER solves. Zach Claybaugh 33:14 it's such a I don't know fraught discussion in some ways. But I don't know, it's always been so simple to me just from the side of it that We need to do right by students. You know, students, I think, come to the university, and particularly students that are first-generation students. 33:40 Assuming that whatever is recommended by the institution is the right thing for them to do because the institution is supposed to have their back. It's supposed to be supporting them and their learning goals. And I think sometimes we lose sight of that. 34:02 And I think really trying to recenter students and re-center that experience and try to strip away some of the I don't know, extra bits and parts that have gotten piled on. I think just getting back down to that simple ethos is a way where we can really push the movement forward, but also just You know, put us back on a on a positive course, but oh, I'll get off my I don't know, little thump speech right now. But anyways, you know, I think just switching gears here a little bit. 34:42 So kind of coming back to your origin story and moving forward. You've spent so much of your career helping move open education into state and federal policy conversations. what have policymakers come to understand about open education? 35:02 And what do they still misunderstand? And I know that you talked about the grassroots work that you did at the beginning and building those relationships. But really over time, how has this evolved on a state and federal level as far as understanding? Nicole Allen 35:21 An important thing to know about policymakers is that in most cases, they're never going to have a deep understanding of open education. In fact, that's true of most of the issues that they legislate on because they're working on such a broad range of public policy issues that it's almost impossible. to have a full understanding of all of those things. 35:44 Even the ones that specialize in education or on education committees, there's still so much. to have to hold in your head as a policymaker. And that's why it makes the job of advocates so important. 35:58 It's our job to make it simple and connect open education to the problems that it's going to solve for their constituents. So I think the extent to which policymakers are, broadly speaking, engaging in open education is directly proportional to how effectively we're making the case for open education as a solution to a problem they're trying to solve. And that comes back to earlier in the conversation where that was textbook affordability for a long time, and it was a really clear-cut case. 36:35 That it's like they're these expensive textbooks, and OER is the alternative. Now, that case isn't as clear, it's still just as true, but it's not as clear-cut to make. And I think the more that we can think about open education in a broader and more systemic way and thinking about like open licensing policies as defaults. 36:57 and maybe even putting in guardrails that prevent institutions from, for example, charging a flat fee automatic textbook a flat automatic textbook fee for classes that use OER. So at least those courses, when a faculty adopts OER, the savings can accrue directly to those students. And I think also thinking about openness and education in a broader sense, like there's all sorts of conversations happening right now about educational data. 37:32 and compliance with some of the new federal regulations and states are like, how do I even get the data to be able to answer the questions that the federal government has? And thinking about open principles in addition to just open stuff, and how reducing barriers, sharing by default. and thinking about how we can find those places where we're all doing the same thing in isolation and instead of doing that, work together and share. 38:07 I think there's a lot of opportunities in policy around that. Kevin Corocoran 38:11 I just want to recognize that your fingerprints are on a lot of good policy, whether it's in our former home state of Connecticut. whether it's at the federal level for federal grants where it's required. But can you talk a little bit about your conversations with Senator Durbin and the open textbook pilot? Nicole Allen 38:30 Yeah, so Illinois Senator Dick Durbin, he's actually retiring this year. And his a big part of his legacy has been a long string of Of policy wins related to textbook affordability. In 2008, he led the textbook transparency requirements That institution that now require institutions to disclose textbook prices to students when they're registering for courses. 38:58 Later on, he championed the Affordable College Textbook Act, which hasn't passed yet, despite a decade of work. He was successful in working through the annual federal appropriations process to provide funding for a grant program at the Department of Education called the Open Textbook Pilot, which has funded over a dozen programs at states and institutions across the country to create OER and We're really grateful for that legacy he is leaving. And I think that that kind of government investment can be really catalytic in work that has An impact that far outweighs the initial investment. 39:51 We calculate that the programs funded by the Open Textbook Pilot will save students over $250 million. With under $100 million invested. And that's only what grantees are able to, or have projected. 40:10 the impacts of open, the real one of the advantages of open is that it just multiplies. It multiplies in ways that you just don't even expect and can't track. That kind of unexpectedness is one of the things that makes open beautiful. Zach Claybaugh 40:36 So you've also helped develop and connect open education professionals across the country. I'm an alum of Spark's Open Education Leadership Program. which did wonders for my career and helped connect me with a whole network of people. 40:52 It really is, I feel like, one of the catalysts for where I am today. But really looking towards this next generation or the continuing education of some of us more veteran people. So what skills do you think You know, the next generation of open education leaders need. Nicole Allen 41:17 Well, I have always believed that advocacy is at the heart of this work because We're trying to change a system. We're working against the forces of enclosure and the status quo and legacy systems that are designed to stay the way they are. And many of the incentives that exist around us are keeping it that way. 41:43 And to change that, It does take a skill set that goes beyond just what would be required for non-open work. It's about going outside the library and talking to an administrator. Taking, you know, your, if you've adopted an open textbook, taking the time to write your congressperson or your state representative and let them know that you've done that work and suggest. 42:16 funding more grants like that. It's about thinking about how can we change the systems around us, certainly by our own actions. But the way to lead in this space is to bring others along and bring people into this work. Zach Claybaugh 42:40 You had mentioned previously some of these shifting political priorities as time has gone on, but also we have things like changing technology some of the economic disruptions that have occurred during the last twenty years or so. And that continued consolidation around commercial educational publishing. But considering all of those things, What gives you hope about the future of open education within this sometimes really challenging context? Nicole Allen 43:20 Oh, it's the people. It's the people in this community. I think there's something really special about the people who advocate for openness. 43:33 And I've tried to put my finger on exactly what it is, but there's an aha moment that everybody in this space I have met has had at some point. where they go from before to after. And I think it's seeing that so many of the barriers around us and the limitations around us are choices. 44:01 and that if we stop doing those things, knowledge can flow freely and we can do more. We can build on each other's work. We can collaborate. 44:13 We can give students more agency in the classroom. It's a really special group of people who have gone through that transformation and I think once you see it, you can't unsee it And the number of people in that group just continues to grow. And it gives me hope. 44:35 that even if they no longer work in open education and move on to other things, that the idea of openness, those core principles, whether it's human rights and sharing and collaboration, that those that type of thinking goes on to transform other spaces. Kevin Corocoran 44:57 Nicole, it has been such an honor to have you on the show. We're towards the end and as a tradition We always end each episode with a really bad AI-generated joke about open education. All right. 45:13 You are not under any obligation to laugh. You can boo, hiss, what have you. And in this particular case, AI, I think Taylor made this joke for you. Nicole Allen 45:25 Okay, I'm ready. I'm buckled up. Kevin Corocoran 45:27 All right. Why was the open textbook elected president of the association? Because everyone already had permission to endorse, adapt, and redistribute its platform. Nicole Allen 45:41 That's pretty good. Kevin Corocoran 45:44 You think it might be one of the better ones? Well, I guess it's all Nicole then. Zach Claybaugh 45:49 I mean, it's still not good, but it's one of the better ones. Nicole Allen 45:53 It has my vote. Zach Claybaugh 45:55 There you go. Thank you so much, Nicole. Nicole Allen 45:58 Thank you so much for having me. Kevin Corocoran 46:01 And with that, the mic is closed.